Response to boammarruri on why I’m not a Christian

Ah boammarruri so you want to discuss a form of shoe horning Christian beliefs to fit scientific knowledge instead of Dr. Ben Carson. I can’t say I blame you it is embarrassing to have one of your fellow travelers spouting such nonsense.

I have been listening to and analyzing attempts to provide a Christian interpretation of scientific evidence for fifty years. Of course it goes back much longer than that. The latest popular trend is some form of guided intelligent design. That says usually says life is like this like this becaure life comes from the drawing board of an omnipotent being called God who believes humans are special and deserve his special attention.

Or it might be the alternative that was often given when I was in high school that this omnipotent being started things going 4 ½ billion years ago on earth guiding evolution along because he foresaw that the result would be a being that would choose to worship him.

Both possibilities conveniently ignoring the simple idea that a God is not necessary. (Search YouTube for Dr. Richard Dawkins or see his foundation the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science https://richarddawkins.net/, (see below for a brief bio at *1-the chances that an emeritus fellow of New College, Oxford, he is a scientific light weight are fairly slim.

This sort attempted shoe horning of the Christian religion to fit contemporary science reminds me of attempts by the Catholic Church to maintain the perfect circle orbits of the planets and a geocentric earth in the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries. When the evidence for elliptical orbits and a sun centered solar system became too great to ignore fiddly bits called epicycles were reintroduced. Of course over time as planet orbit data got more refined more of these fiddly bits corrections had to be added until models of the solar resembled this.

Geocentric planetary orbits

Not exactly the simple diagram of a sun center solar system remembered from 6th grade science. You can figure it is safe to use Occam’s Razor or the rule of parsimony and choose the simplest idea. Since a God is not required and complicates the situation so why introduce him.

*1 {Start of bio}

Clinton Richard Dawkins /ˈdɔːkɨnz/ FRS FRSL (born 26 March 1941) is a British ethologist, evolutionary biologist and writer. He is an emeritus fellow of New College, Oxford,[5] and was the University of Oxford‘s Professor for Public Understanding of Science from 1995 until 2008.

Dawkins is a noted atheist, a patron of the British Humanist Association, and a supporter of the Brights movement, and is well known for his criticism of creationism and intelligent design. In his 1986 book The Blind Watchmaker, he argues against the watchmaker analogy, an argument for the existence of a supernatural creator based upon the complexity of living organisms. Instead, he describes evolutionary processes as analogous to a blind watchmaker. Dawkins first came to prominence with his 1976 book The Selfish Gene, which popularised the gene-centred view of evolution and introduced the term meme. In 1982, he introduced into evolutionary biology the influential concept that the phenotypic effects of a gene are not necessarily limited to an organism’s body, but can stretch far into the environment, including the bodies of other organisms. This concept is presented in his book The Extended Phenotype.

He has since written several popular science books, and makes regular television and radio appearances, predominantly discussing these topics. In his 2006 book The God Delusion, Dawkins contends that a supernatural creator almost certainly does not exist and that religious faith is a delusion—”a fixed false belief”. As of January 2010, the English-language version had sold more than two million copies and had been translated into 31 languages. Dawkins founded the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science to promote the teaching of evolution and to counteract those who advocate classroom programs against evolution. {End of bio}

Yes as you say, there is evidence from the cosmic back ground radiation that our universe is 13.7 billion years old. A more precise figure from a 2013 analysis of data from ESA’s Plank spacecraft data puts it at 13.8 billion years. Of course the difference between the two figures may be rounding error. This doesn’t show God exists. It does raise the question if he does exist and human are so important why he hasn’t show himself in so long.

You say the universe finite, but is it really. I think that is some doubt since the discovery of dark matter, dark energy, and our accelerating universe. The discover’s won the 2011 Nobel Prize in physics. Figures from NASA’s Spitizer telescope put the speed of expansion at a rate of 74.3 plus or minus 2.1 kilometers (46.2 plus or minus 1.3 miles) per second per megaparsec. And it’s accelerating. These figures reduce the uncertainty in the Hubble constant by a factor of three compared to figures from the Hubble telescope. So probably today the most reasonable course today is to say I don’t know to the idea that our universe is finite.

You are right that small changes fundamental constants lead to no life or life.But then you try to tie that to the development of intelligence implying that has to be designed. Which is really inevitable given evolution and the length of time the earth has existed. No overseeing intelligence required.

Hmm, you say “But before even going to the scientific evidence there is the philosophical presuppositions about human nature we take for granted which naturalism/atheism contradicts.”

It does. How?

Then you go on “If all we are is material beings, then consciousness and freewill become illusions, all our thoughts and beliefs are determined by chemical laws and not based on rationality.”

Who say so? Certainly my thoughts are going to be since I am a carbon based on but I determine if they are rational.

Finally you say, “The same goes for our actions, you writing this post is not because there is a “self” who is conscious and able to think rationally – but because we are atoms that dance to the tune of fixed physical laws.” This sound suspiciously like the kind of pseudo psychological rambeling used when the person really trying to convince them self that their irrational beliefs are true.

BTW I looked at the web site you sent. It is the same type of rubbish dressed up in new pseudo-scientific clothes that has been around at least fifty years and probably longer.

An alternative with no God required explanation for the Cambrian Explosion is provided by EVOLUTION. It is much the same as has occurred with the computer capability explosion in the last half century. That’s exactly the kind of thing we would expect to see with evolution. When new mechanisms or trait appears such as mobility and/or multi-cellular organisms appear there are thousands of niches to fill and evolution will be very very fast.

Even the rarity of precursor organism has a rational reason. Immediately prior to the Cambrian, during the Ediacaran, life forms were simple, soft and mostly immobile. This does not favor the creation of fossils especially after almost half a billion years of volcanos and other geological activity have reshaped the planet.

I think you need to get your story straight concerning Darwin. In an earlier post you said “Of course the Cambrian explosion is not new, in fact Darwin in his book (sp) recognised that the Cambrian explosion refuted his theory.’ Since the fossils of the Cambrian explosion weren’t discovered until twenty-seven years after his death and weren’t interpreted until for a century after his death. I think it would be difficult for a dead man to write about them in his book.

You say, “Faith is not believing blindly…”

Actually the dictionary definition of faith is accepting blindly without proof in other words a blind leap.

Then you say, “The early (sp) christians became followers because they believed Jesus had provided evidence of his claims by rising from the dead.”

Since rising from the dead requires divinity by cannon law and that wasn’t decided until The First Council Of Nicasea in 325 AD there is a bit of a problem in even saying Jesus was divine. That sounds like suspiciously like unknown divinity one day but because some Bishops say so divine the next.

Considering this indecision and wonderful activities like Lot telling a crowd he would give them his daughters to rape instead letting them rape the visitors in his house. Of course that is the Old Testament so it doesn’t count but wait last time I checked that part of the Bible comes along the New Testament. Then there are the wonderful activities in the seventeen hundred years since the Council of Nicasea like the Crusades where millions of women and children died, and dunking or burning the supposed witches and low estimate fifty thousand to as many as a few million mostly died that way. Usually it was because they were older women who had outlived their husband and had inherited property that some male in the local area wanted. Dunking was particularly logical. The supposed witch was bound and thrown in the water. If she survived it was because the devil saved her and she was killed. If she drowned then the devil wasn’t in her and oops. And activities like slavery. The Bible was used to justify that also.

And more recent wonderful things like the Holocaust. Yes Hitler was a Baptized Catholic. Of course the SS officer can tell concentration camp guards that they can kill Jews because the church says they killed Jesus. Of course you can cherry pick verses you want to discriminate against any black or gay or other person you don’t like. Maybe like my transsexual friend who’s former church held prayer meetings the week she was scheduled surgery praying she would die on the table since the Bible says she would be a man having sex with a man if she chose to have intercourse. (She didn’t die BTW.)

So you wonder why I think your church is evil and I won’t join it!

For future reference I am one of those unusual people in western society that was not indoctrinated in to Christianity or any religion at an early age. My father protected me until I could think for myself. I think he knew his protection job was done when I was nine. Some relatives forced me to go to vacation bible school. I was kicked out because I kept asking inconvenient questions like “why” and saying thing like, “That doesn’t make sense.” Nine year olds are not very PC.

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